What Value Can The Sport Of Rugby Really Bring To The World Of Business?

SMEToday’s features editor Fiona Scott recently had the opportunity to interview former Bath and England Rugby Union player, Dave Attwood.

What Value Can The Sport Of Rugby Really Bring To The World Of Business?

This was just one of the questions I asked former rugby union player Dave Attwood. I recently met the 37-year-old for the first time and, as I’m not a rugby fan, I had no real clue who he was or what he’d achieved to date in his career. I’m no longer ignorant. Dave is a committed father, partner, sports fan and now businessman and is about to mark his first year in the ‘real world’ as he calls it. During his 20-year career as an elite athlete in rugby union, he played for teams in Bristol, Gloucester, France and Bath and was capped for England 24 times. Yet arguably his biggest learning journey has just begun – the journey of transformation as he builds a life outside full-time sport.

Where Were You Born And Brought Up?

I was born at the Bristol Royal Infirmary. My parents moved to Bristol because my Mum Ann found a teaching job and my Dad John was unemployed at the time. My brother had I had a happy and very working class upbringing. I remember we lived in a flat in Kingswood in Bristol and my parents couldn’t afford electricity so a kind neighbour used to send an extension cable through the window to help us out. Then in the evening they would give us a warning that the power was going off and they were going to bed!

I also remember Dad couldn’t afford to pay the milkman and would avoid paying for several weeks. There was one time when Dad had gone to sign on and Mum got a phone call from Dad asking if she’d come to the hairdressers as he’d had a perm and couldn’t afford to pay for it. It’s hilarious to think that he’s now completely bald.

My parents, now 69 and 73, were and are amazing. I see that now as I’m a parent myself. They are heroes and they enabled both my brother and I to be the best that we could be. My brother Matthew, who is 41, is an academic and highly qualified in many areas of sport. My own career, of course, took me into competitive sport.

Were Your Parents Sporty?

Neither of my parents are remotely sporty. Mum played netball and my Dad was very proud of his performance at school once in the 110m yard hurdles on sports day, but that is about it. So, where this love of sport came from I’m unsure. However, my brother and I were, from the off, very sporty. We swam a lot and my brother chose individual pursuits, including cycling, swimming, fishing and I did a bit of football and then rugby. I also was quite good at discus  (yes, like England Under-16 discus champion at one time).

We had very enjoyable camping holidays throughout our childhood and we spent much time with wider family as my Mum is one of four sisters. I went to secondary school at The Ridings High School, now known as the Winterbourne Academy. It was the school where by then, my Dad was a teacher.

Originally he taught maths but when computers became a thing he was spotted for his natural talent. One day he tried to print something from the computer and the printer didn’t work. He took it apart and put it back together and it did work. He was then invited to become the school’s head of IT and he held that role for many years seeing the school through an IT revolution.

What my parents did for us was to provide opportunity. When I look back, I marvel at the amount of time and effort they put in to giving us sporting opportunities. The amount of driving around as we used to swim four or five times a week. We’d be up at 5am to go to the swimming pool and Mum would sit in the stands and do marking and school work. Then there were the countless rugby tournaments and rugby games. They put in so much commitment and could not have done more.

What Are Your Earliest Memomies Of Rugby?

I remember being very young watching the great Jonah Lomu steam roller Mike Catt but little more than that. It wasn’t until I moved to a new primary school which was more rugby-orientated that it became more relevant. One mum spotted that I was ‘big’ and asked her son to ask me to play for his team. I did this and soon became a member of Frampton Cotterell Rugby Club at about eight years old.

I almost got sent off from my first game for slide tackling and I was told not to do that but, of course, I didn’t know the rules. That was my first real introduction to rugby. 

What Happened Next?

Because I was tall (Dave says he’s 6ft 6 but his Wikipedia says 6 ft 8 – let’s just say he’s tall) I’d easily get into county teams, and I went on to become heavily involved with the Bristol Academy (Bristol Bears now).

When I was about 15, I got called into the office and I really thought I was going to be offered a professional contract. The reality was very different. Instead, I got the ‘thanks very much you are just a big kid and not that good at rugby so goodbye’ speech.

I felt very crestfallen about that, and I thought that now I’m going to have to be real person and get a real job and I’ll go to university which I did. I went to Bristol University to study physics and philosophy as I had no idea what I wanted to do and that was the broadest subject I could choose which played to my strengths e.g. Physics and maths.

While I was there I started to play for the Dings Crusaders in Lockleaze in Bristol – reputedly a very rough club. This was when I truly learned about rugby. I grew up and I played men’s rugby, and that turned me into a competent rugby player.

Bristol Bears saw me play during this time, changed their minds and offered me a professional contract. In collaboration with the university, I decided to complete a three year BSc degree, rather than a Masters, which would allow me to finish my degree and play professional rugby.

I was with Bristol Bears initially and then that same year they were relegated, I didn’t play any part at all in their performance at that time. I was up for renewal, and I’d got some recognition from international rugby and played for the England Under 20s as captain a couple of times.

You Moved To Gloucester?

Yes. During this period Gloucester Rugby were interested in me and they were in the premiership. Although I was very loyal to Bristol Bears, I felt that it was a good move for me and my hopes of an international career in rugby and it worked out for me as within the year I got capped by England.

I was a second row, often known as a ‘lock’ and throughout my career I have always been in that kind of position. I was usually the tallest player in the team and was able to do a lot of heavy lifting, scrummaging and lineouts, in other words the big contact elements of the game. I was particularly good at most of them.

I’ve been called the best scrummaging second row in the northern hemisphere during my playing career and I often thought about physics for this and used this knowledge in deciding how to place my body during competitive games.

I stayed at Gloucester for two years when sadly the owner Tom Walkinshaw passed away and no contracts could be signed for various reasons and that was when I joined Bath Rugby Club. I’d always loved the west country and the fans are incredible with rugby being part of the DNA of the city of Bath. It was the start of the best part of 12 years at the club (with a couple of small breaks elsewhere during that period).

What Is The ‘Magic’ Of Bath Rugby Then?

For me, there is no stadium in the world that has a better location than the Rec. The fans are incredibly passionate and incredibly well mannered and I do think it’s one of the things that set fans of rugby apart. In Bath this is so true.

The club is aspirational with Bruce Craig coming in as a benefactor – this is a club which has been on the edge of greatness for a long time. It has all the ingredients to be great and even if that hasn’t quite worked so far – it will.

It is that potential that I fell in love with.

What Has Been Your Proudest Moment As A Professional Rugby Player?

I played over 350 first class games for Bristol, Bath, Gloucester, Toulon and England and was part of the international team for over ten years – and I’m proud of it all. I’ve played, won and lost in finals and semi-finals in all those settings.

Yet my proudest moment came last year in my retirement game in Bath. I got to run out with my kids for the game – Jess & Patch – and the message I got from the fans was deeply humbling. The ‘thank you’ standing ovation and ‘thank you for your service’  made me realise that it was about more than just winning games.

People care about rugby. It gives them escapism, connection, highlights and lowlights in their day, and I’ve been a very good ambassador for rugby and I felt a sense of acknowledgment of that. I hope to continue to advocate for the good that rugby does as a sport.

I’ve never been as overwhelmed as on that day last year. Looking back now, to have played at that level for so long, was quite remarkable.

When Did You Make The Decision To Retire?

You know it’s coming, and I did have opportunities to continue to play elsewhere, however I didn’t want avoid stepping into the next chapter or not wanting to let go.

I didn’t want to be someone clinging on and worried about what would happen next. It was probably around Christmas 2022 when I sat down with Johan van Graan, the Bath head coach, and we discussed it, and I knew it was the right time for me.

How Did You Cope With The Thought Of Transition?

I’d been brought up in an environment where your focus is the weekend and you can be made to feel in elite sport that you are really special and important.

There’s almost a subliminal undercurrent that you don’t need to think about what’s next. Yet I did have my eye on the future. I even did a law degree while I was playing, thinking I might pursue a career in the law.

Then I went to a reunion event and got into a conversation with a man I met there and gave him a lift home as he also lived in Bath. The more conversation I had with this man the more I felt that I should be doing what he was doing. His name is Graham Abbey, CEO of Farleigh Performance. He provides leadership and teamwork consultancy.

This spoke not only to me personally but also to my view that rugby as a sport needs to step up and be counted for the value it offers outside of the sport itself, to wider society.

There are health concerns around concussion which I take very seriously however we are poor as a sport at illustrating the value of rugby to those who are not rugby fans. This sport has given me so much that I want to preach and educate others around it, especially in the world of business.

What Value Can The Sport Of Rugby Really Bring To The World Of Business?

It’s so much about being a good person and to understand your impact on other people – rugby does that.

This sport teaches you about honesty, communication and integrity. There are virtually no rugby players who are not good people. You are forced to learn how to be a good person and you will learn that hard and fast on the field of play.

It’s really shocked me, outside of rugby, how terrible people can be at communicating, how scared they can be of simply saying what they want.

There is much joy to be had and an easing of anxiety simply by improving your environment and your communication.  I try and teach people to let go of their preconceptions and enjoy the space they are in.

Who Have You Helped So Far?

Many people within law firms, drinks manufacturers, car sales, charities & primary schools. In my view any organisation across any sector that has more than one person can have issues with communication.

There is no absolute solution to this, no end game, it’s just a way of travelling. Buying a new gizmo won’t solve a problem like that. In business, as in sport, an organisation and its people must be continually moving. For me, it’s more about the mode of transport and that’s what creates high performance and makes work, business and life profitable and enjoyable.

What Are The Red Flags Within A Business Which Might Show That Communication Or Culture Is Poor?

• People being signed off work with stress.
• People working very long hours and working weekends.
• People always working from home even if they are not required to be.

These can all be indicators there’s a lot of work to be done.

• When senior staff are very slow to get back to you on things – they often don’t trust the people below them. If I have a conversation with a CEO and a floor sales person, I should be getting same story from both.
• When two very different companies merge, there’s an assumption that it will just work and it sometimes doesn’t.
• When businesses don’t move forward. Sometimes CEOs can complain that their team need to be more autonomous yet when you dig into it, it can be them at the centre of the problem. There is never a one-sided blade, there are always two sides.

Consultancy And Cocktails – What’s That All About?

For myself, I want to build more than one business so that I have choice about how I spend my time. I co-parent my children with my ex-partner with whom I have an amicable relationship and that’s important to me.

I’m a consultant on teamwork, culture, leadership and high performance and on another day, I’m a bar manager.

I have a portable bar which was formerly a horse box, which serves a certain type of cocktail, at events and that’s going very well. It’s very different and allows me to solve problems which I love to do.

I use my own kegs, I’ve developed a portable way of serving cocktails and also carrying ice around a venue, on my person, and the object is to expand on this business. I based it on what I saw as a gap in the market when it comes to serving drinks at rugby matches.

Rugby is a family sport and when families and fans come to a game, the choice of drinks has tended to be beer and cider and not much else. Sometimes wine if you are really lucky and then tea or coffee. I realised logistically it would be difficult to produce cocktails on a mass scale yet what if there was a way of offering more choice?

Consider the time scale of a rugby game. People will arrive about half an hour before game starts, they won’t come for a drink during the match, they will come at half time and then there’s about half an hour after game. This means you have 70 mins to sell.

If it takes you two minutes to mix one cocktail, you can sell 35 drinks and, on the off chance that all of those sales are profit (which they won’t be) – you’ve made £350. So how do you offer something that’s different, profitable and you can sell more than 35 drinks in a short period of time? I felt there was a gap there.

I decided an Aperol Spritz is a longer format cocktail – you could sit and nurse that through a game and I love them. I realised I could produce it in kegs, and it would take between eight or ten seconds to provide someone with a drink. I’m also now working with another Wiltshire based supplier for their ‘spritzer’ drink and am a distributor for it.

Suddenly I have opened a drinks market for those who don’t want a beer or cider. It’s an opportunity and I’m enjoying exploring it. It’s sideways thinking. I couldn’t sell to 20,000 people. I don’t have that capacity, but I can sell and make some money doing something I enjoy.

How Did The Horse Box Idea Arise?

I thought a horse box would work for serving drinks and was searching on Facebook. An ad came up for a draw to win a horse box. I bought tickets and then had a phone call to say I’d won it. It was brand new, and I had to go and collect it.

This was an amazing result however the horse box wasn’t right for me, so I immediately re-listed it and sold it on to someone else – and they collected it. With that money, I was able to invest in a horse box which previously was used by a shire horse. I didn’t even, at that time, have a car suitable for towing. Now I do.

What Kind Of Events Have You Done So Far?

Well rugby matches – although I’ve been given no special favours for that. I was treated the same as any other supplier, there simply wasn’t anyone doing this. I’ve also done some weddings, golf days, festivals, markets. I’m exploring other sporting events and have applied for Bath Christmas Market and want to try out some pop-up events too. I’ve got hot cocktails planned for the winter period and over time I’ll get another horse box and employ more staff to support and grow this business.

And What’s Next For You?

I’m on a journey of learning about myself, about business and about helping others. I want to set up a business which runs itself so that I can also spend time building a portfolio career. I’m excited for my future with my children and seeing them grow and develop. I’m also excited and grateful for the support of my partner Katie who is standing alongside me in this part of my life. And, as I’ve said before, I bow to my parents Ann and John, who put so much commitment into making mine and my brother’s lives fulfilling. I know that the future will be another great adventure.

Interview with  Dave Attwood by Fiona Scott, Features editor SMEToday